Comments on: If place is a system, let’s make it an open source one http://davepress.net/2011/01/28/if-place-is-a-system-lets-make-it-an-open-source-one/ Open government and everything else Sat, 19 Mar 2011 17:22:36 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1 By: Mike http://davepress.net/2011/01/28/if-place-is-a-system-lets-make-it-an-open-source-one/comment-page-1/#comment-10388 Mike Wed, 02 Feb 2011 11:56:47 +0000 http://davepress.net/?p=17816#comment-10388 To clarify, I agree with the principle. I'm totally onboard with the concept and have been pushing for Open Source/Open Data approaches (with some success). But we live with an adversarial political system where skulduggery and misrepresentation are tools of the trade. Agreed, Justin that sufficient will on behalf of the public does indeed align political will (see: France) but how often does this happen? Is it a workable day-to-day approach to concepts like 'Total Place'? Agreed it would work well for technical and service delivery systems but everything is political at a certain level and with the introduction of elected Chief Constables even the political character of the police will be made overt. I guess what I mean is it works for some paradigms but not for others. To clarify, I agree with the principle. I’m totally onboard with the concept and have been pushing for Open Source/Open Data approaches (with some success). But we live with an adversarial political system where skulduggery and misrepresentation are tools of the trade. Agreed, Justin that sufficient will on behalf of the public does indeed align political will (see: France) but how often does this happen? Is it a workable day-to-day approach to concepts like ‘Total Place’? Agreed it would work well for technical and service delivery systems but everything is political at a certain level and with the introduction of elected Chief Constables even the political character of the police will be made overt. I guess what I mean is it works for some paradigms but not for others.

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By: Justin Partridge http://davepress.net/2011/01/28/if-place-is-a-system-lets-make-it-an-open-source-one/comment-page-1/#comment-10384 Justin Partridge Tue, 01 Feb 2011 18:39:43 +0000 http://davepress.net/?p=17816#comment-10384 I have posted up a reply continuing our discussion on my blog http://partridgej.wordpress.com/2011/02/01/105/ I note the comment above about politics getting in the way - but I think with enough impetus and public pressure behind an idea, the politics will suddenly fall into place. A different kind of democracy? - well maybe ideas like this might help to challenge some of the negative aspects (amongst lots of positive ones) of our current systems. I have posted up a reply continuing our discussion on my blog http://partridgej.wordpress.com/2011/02/01/105/

I note the comment above about politics getting in the way – but I think with enough impetus and public pressure behind an idea, the politics will suddenly fall into place. A different kind of democracy? – well maybe ideas like this might help to challenge some of the negative aspects (amongst lots of positive ones) of our current systems.

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By: Mike http://davepress.net/2011/01/28/if-place-is-a-system-lets-make-it-an-open-source-one/comment-page-1/#comment-10369 Mike Mon, 31 Jan 2011 12:37:14 +0000 http://davepress.net/?p=17816#comment-10369 Hi Dave It's an interesting idea and one that should work but there is a single decisive omission in the code of the argument - politics. If the regions/sub/authority is a system then it is not as a coded system would be with rules and functions that execute as programmed (whether badly or correctly). To extend the metaphor it is rather all of those things with a large unpredictable variable playing an equal role in the overall process so that the result is unknowable and can only be predicted on the basis of probability and is often unknowable. This is the limit of bureaucracy and in this context it is emphasised. At the most basic level the political utility of transparency is missing from this model. It's like saying that people really want the truth. But that's not the truth, is it? It should be and would be if we were playing to how we would like to be, but that's not how we are. The political risk would be too high and sooner or later (probably sooner), someone would use it for political gain (see banks, phone hacking and MP's expenses for reference). I've spent 15yrs in the public sector in the UK and rarely seen anything like what you describe (i.e. hacker philosophy) work for long. The public sector works because of a few inspirational and dedicated people in key roles giving life to processes and hope to others through the integrity of their work. If that could be changed then maybe it would work. But then it would be a very different kind of democracy. There might be something in that. Thanks Hi Dave

It’s an interesting idea and one that should work but there is a single decisive omission in the code of the argument – politics. If the regions/sub/authority is a system then it is not as a coded system would be with rules and functions that execute as programmed (whether badly or correctly). To extend the metaphor it is rather all of those things with a large unpredictable variable playing an equal role in the overall process so that the result is unknowable and can only be predicted on the basis of probability and is often unknowable. This is the limit of bureaucracy and in this context it is emphasised. At the most basic level the political utility of transparency is missing from this model. It’s like saying that people really want the truth. But that’s not the truth, is it? It should be and would be if we were playing to how we would like to be, but that’s not how we are. The political risk would be too high and sooner or later (probably sooner), someone would use it for political gain (see banks, phone hacking and MP’s expenses for reference).

I’ve spent 15yrs in the public sector in the UK and rarely seen anything like what you describe (i.e. hacker philosophy) work for long. The public sector works because of a few inspirational and dedicated people in key roles giving life to processes and hope to others through the integrity of their work. If that could be changed then maybe it would work. But then it would be a very different kind of democracy.

There might be something in that.

Thanks

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By: Tim Davies http://davepress.net/2011/01/28/if-place-is-a-system-lets-make-it-an-open-source-one/comment-page-1/#comment-10309 Tim Davies Fri, 28 Jan 2011 17:27:45 +0000 http://davepress.net/?p=17816#comment-10309 Hey Dave, This idea is still definitely ripe for a pilot project - turning council minutes, FMS reports, and all sorts of other things into tracked issues. Know any LAs who might be up for prototyping it? Tim Hey Dave,

This idea is still definitely ripe for a pilot project – turning council minutes, FMS reports, and all sorts of other things into tracked issues. Know any LAs who might be up for prototyping it?

Tim

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By: Paul Morriss http://davepress.net/2011/01/28/if-place-is-a-system-lets-make-it-an-open-source-one/comment-page-1/#comment-10304 Paul Morriss Fri, 28 Jan 2011 14:47:03 +0000 http://davepress.net/?p=17816#comment-10304 What would the scope of a given bugtracker be? If you're using Firefox and you spot a bug you can find its bug tracker (so long as it's not a bug with Windows, or a fault with your PC). It's hard enough to know what's district council and what's county council, so it would have to be at a county level. But suppose it wasn't council, but another public body? NHS, police and every other relevant organisation would have to be signed up. Good idea though What would the scope of a given bugtracker be? If you’re using Firefox and you spot a bug you can find its bug tracker (so long as it’s not a bug with Windows, or a fault with your PC).

It’s hard enough to know what’s district council and what’s county council, so it would have to be at a county level. But suppose it wasn’t council, but another public body? NHS, police and every other relevant organisation would have to be signed up.

Good idea though

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By: Martin Howitt http://davepress.net/2011/01/28/if-place-is-a-system-lets-make-it-an-open-source-one/comment-page-1/#comment-10302 Martin Howitt Fri, 28 Jan 2011 10:32:40 +0000 http://davepress.net/?p=17816#comment-10302 just an aside really: Governance is the biggest challenge in decoupled open source projects. And its relatively easy to verify that code works: social processes are a lot easier to hack. If place is a system, it's an SOA one and local authorities are the Enterprise Service Bus. just an aside really: Governance is the biggest challenge in decoupled open source projects. And its relatively easy to verify that code works: social processes are a lot easier to hack.

If place is a system, it’s an SOA one and local authorities are the Enterprise Service Bus.

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